Pronouns

Discussions related to nonbinary experiences, identity and expression. 'On topic' discussions that don't fit anywhere else.

Re: Supporting "Mx"

Postby fornorm » Tue Feb 24, 2015 10:45 am

I put the problem of finding a non-gendered pronoun to Jeremy Gibson, a retired radio scriptwriter, playwright and general all-round excellent wordsmith. He came up with the following:

http://www.poppyrecords.co.uk/other/Gender/pronouns.php
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Re: Supporting "Mx"

Postby Cassian » Tue Feb 24, 2015 11:24 am

Love how when people find out that no one has reached a consensus on using one of the 30+ existing neutral pronouns, they create a new one. :D

Image
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Re: Supporting "Mx"

Postby fornorm » Wed Feb 25, 2015 1:12 pm

Cassian wrote:Love how when people find out that no one has reached a consensus on using one of the 30+ existing neutral pronouns, they create a new one. :D

The problem is that none of the existing pronouns has caught on, so people are still searching to find one that will. Perhaps we need a 'pronouns' thread to compliment the "Supporting Mx" thread

Some of the suggested pronouns are obvious non-starters, such as those that cannot be pronounced or do not fit into existing speech patterns, others sound too much like existing words. These aren't really standards, or even suitable to be put forward as standards, they are merely suggestions. We need to keep thinking about pronouns until we develop something that fulfils all the requirements, then we can promote it as our agreed standard with confidence.

Mx certainly is a good substitute for Mr/Mrs because it fulfils nearly all the requirements; the only slight niggle is that the pronunciation is not obvious until it is generally accepted as an abbreviation for a longer pre-existing word such as "mix" or better still "mixture". The abbreviation "Ms" also suffers from this problem, because very few people realise that it it an abbreviation for "mistress" - and that is how it should correctly be pronounced. (Before anyone protests, we don't pronounce Mr. as "Mer" or Mrs. as "Merz", so why should we attempt to pronounce Ms. as "Mees"?)

Thus we have:
Mr. = Mister
Mrs. = Misses
Ms. = Mistress
Mx. = Mixture

...which seem like a perfectly good set of standards worth promoting.
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Re: Supporting "Mx"

Postby Cassian » Wed Feb 25, 2015 2:38 pm

I do think a separate thread for pronouns is a good idea too. Since it seems relevant I'll add that I did yet another survey (I like to do those), and the most popular non-gendered pronoun in the UK and worldwide was singular they (~75% of just under 3,000 participants are "happy" with it). The most popular non-gendered pronoun *after* singular they both in the UK and worldwide was zie/hir (~13% in both).

One of the entries for pronouns hinted at a mashing together of he/him and she/her to make he/her, which I quite like! But I think it would be too confusing to catch on.

Edit: In that survey where I asked about pronouns, in 2,900 participants, 99 pronouns were entered or selected altogether. The list of "suggested" pronouns that you could just tick a box next to only had 10 options and an "other" box, and the "other" box was used a lot. Of those 99 pronouns selected or entered, 61 were entered only once. I'm not really trying to make a point, I just thought it was interesting. :)
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Pronouns

Postby Cassian » Wed Feb 25, 2015 4:36 pm

I'm just creating this because some pronouny talk has started up in the Mx thread, and someone suggested a new thread just for pronouns. Ta-dah!

Now let's see if I can swoop the pronouny discussion into here... (I'm new to this modding thing.)

Edit: It worked! Posts are above.
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Re: Supporting "Mx"

Postby sparrowsion » Tue Mar 10, 2015 6:06 pm

Cassian wrote:One of the entries for pronouns hinted at a mashing together of he/him and she/her to make he/her, which I quite like! But I think it would be too confusing to catch on.


I really like this, because of the regularity of he/her/hers/herself. But the people I've tried it with have just found it far to confusing to use, even without the ambiguity you describe. And there's a bit of an implication that the person in question would fall specifically under the bigeneder or genderfluid part of the umbrella. (There's also the negative point that the default/active derives from the masculine and the rest from the feminine.)
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Re: Pronouns

Postby Cassian » Tue Mar 10, 2015 7:06 pm

Yup, there are many layers of confusion there. :S But it's otherwise so pretty!
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Re: Pronouns

Postby blossombreeze » Tue Mar 10, 2015 7:11 pm

Despite people's issues with "them" and "they" being "grammatically incorrect" I feel like those are the most natural to use for me than making up whole new pronouns and examples of their usage for each one. I also like Hir and h/she but they don't translate as well as speaking pronouns in my opinion. "Ga" is interesting, I personally wouldn't use it, but it's good to know about!
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Re: Pronouns

Postby Cassian » Tue Mar 10, 2015 7:44 pm

I feel that way about they/them too - and 3 in 4 nonbinary people are happy with it, which is cool. But that still leaves a quarter of nonbinary people not liking they/them, so I'm not sure. It's a tricky one.
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Re: Pronouns

Postby Daffidill23 » Tue Jun 09, 2015 5:38 pm

I think that we don't actually need an umbrella pronoun. Pronouns (and gender) can be as unique as someone's name, so we should just get into the habit of offering our pronouns at the same time as our names, and the same with asking someone's name/pronouns
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